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JohnMarc

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Reply with quote  #1 
I am wondering about the people who feel like they have been cured and moved on from H only to relapse months/yeas later. Is it possible that their TRT or other sound enrichment therapy did not fully treat the very high frequencies. Given we do not normally experience the very high frequencies in normal everyday situations, we feel like we are cured. But in some uncommon event months/years later we get exposed to higher frequencies in loud enough volume to cause a relapse. And therefore, it is crucial to treat all frequencies - the lower ones for your day to day tolerance, and the very high ones to completely kill the "cancer". Is that how it works??
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TallDude

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Reply with quote  #2 
My hearing loss is meanly in the high frequencies, i was a drummer as a kid (no protection) and played music all my life. Those crash cymbals probably killed all my higher frequencies. I'm experiencing H since a few months now. Have been reading books and studies to learn as much as possible about T and H.

Many studies suggest that loudness perception is highly plastic and could be controlled by a central gain, depending on the mean level of the sensory environment. So when you loose sensory inputs the "volume knob" is turned up to compensate.

I came across a recent study where they use a custom made "therapeutic signal" (based on the personal audiogram) to stimulate the damaged region. Of course you cannot stimulate dead OHC but IHC also pick up signal and still can be stimulated. In this study they had fast results (2 weeks) for 8 patients using this method. Normally it takes months to improve H using sound enrichment, maybe this is because you are in fact stimulating OHC that don't need stimulation. It makes sence that when you only stimulate the frequency range of hearing loss that this can reduce auditory hypersensitivity over a broad frequency band, thats is if indeed the "central gain knob" is the problem.
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JohnMarc

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TallDude
My hearing loss is meanly in the high frequencies, i was a drummer as a kid (no protection) and played music all my life. Those crash cymbals probably killed all my higher frequencies. I'm experiencing H since a few months now. Have been reading books and studies to learn as much as possible about T and H.

Many studies suggest that loudness perception is highly plastic and could be controlled by a central gain, depending on the mean level of the sensory environment. So when you loose sensory inputs the "volume knob" is turned up to compensate.

I came across a recent study where they use a custom made "therapeutic signal" (based on the personal audiogram) to stimulate the damaged region. Of course you cannot stimulate dead OHC but IHC also pick up signal and still can be stimulated. In this study they had fast results (2 weeks) for 8 patients using this method. Normally it takes months to improve H using sound enrichment, maybe this is because you are in fact stimulating OHC that don't need stimulation. It makes sence that when you only stimulate the frequency range of hearing loss that this can reduce auditory hypersensitivity over a broad frequency band, thats is if indeed the "central gain knob" is the problem.


Good information.. I see in a different post you are working with a Dr. Norena to produce such a broadband noise based on your audiogram. Would love to know how that works out for you.
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TallDude

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Reply with quote  #4 
I'm curious too. Didn't recieve my 'therapeutic signal' yet. Just recently sent in my audiogram.

I must say my LDL's already improved quite a bit for the last few weeks, but it seems the higher impact sounds are still more troublesome.
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ArtIrish

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Posts: 153
Reply with quote  #5 
I got exploded t back in 2012. Then hyperacusis. I worked on sound enrichment music etc very slowly & the hyper was reduced quite a bit as was the t. I then got blasted by a weed blower thing so close to me. It has sent the tinnitus much higher and all sound seems to make it react.
I went back to original audiologist but she could not to seem to hear what I was saying. The things that worked before do not work now. She refused to tell me what she thinks I have now.

If it is reactive t or what. She said she does not like labels but that did not help me at all. not sure what to do. Going out & sound exposure just makes tinnitus so loud & it clicks in reaction to sound. Don't know what to do. Even washing my hair & noise of refrigerator are difficult.
Any suggestions would be helpful

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JohnMarc

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtIrish
I got exploded t back in 2012. Then hyperacusis. I worked on sound enrichment music etc very slowly & the hyper was reduced quite a bit as was the t. I then got blasted by a weed blower thing so close to me. It has sent the tinnitus much higher and all sound seems to make it react.
I went back to original audiologist but she could not to seem to hear what I was saying. The things that worked before do not work now. She refused to tell me what she thinks I have now.

If it is reactive t or what. She said she does not like labels but that did not help me at all. not sure what to do. Going out & sound exposure just makes tinnitus so loud & it clicks in reaction to sound. Don't know what to do. Even washing my hair & noise of refrigerator are difficult.
Any suggestions would be helpful


I would say go to a different audiologist, seems like this one isn't working for you anymore.. and give your ears a rest, use earplugs if it gets too much.. allow them to regroup if the weed blower was a recent event. Once the ears stabilize a little, then you should get rid of the earplugs and do sound enrichment etc whatever you figure out with your new audiologist.. good luck
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ArtIrish

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Reply with quote  #7 
Thank u for that reply. I did contact a new audiologist who wanted 4 hours on first appt which I thought was stupid They make much money of us. Leaf blower was 2 years ago. The problem was I kept doing what I always did &!tinnitus kept getting louder & louder. Almost unbearable. Would think treating the highs as focused here would be great. My audio never mentioned any sound files to me. Don't know how u would do that.
I am stuck.

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JohnMarc

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtIrish
Thank u for that reply. I did contact a new audiologist who wanted 4 hours on first appt which I thought was stupid They make much money of us. Leaf blower was 2 years ago. The problem was I kept doing what I always did &!tinnitus kept getting louder & louder. Almost unbearable. Would think treating the highs as focused here would be great. My audio never mentioned any sound files to me. Don't know how u would do that.
I am stuck.


I think call up as many audologists as it takes you to find one that understands and you're comfortable with.. seems like you understand sound enrichment etc already and if that isn't working out, I don't know what else you can do other than find a specialist who knows what's going on. Do you only have tinnitus now or H also came back?
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TallDude

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Reply with quote  #9 
Just a thought.

White noise is characterized by having equal energy over all the frequencies of a given bandwidth.

Pink noise is characterized by energy that decreases by 50% for each increasing octave over all the frequencies of a given bandwidth.

Wouldn't WN be better for patients having hearing loss in the higher frequencies?

I think i tried WN just for a short period in my office once. For me it sounded unpleasant and for i can remember my T reacted to it, like light cricket sounds ... So i turned it of quickly.

Focus on H is of course stimulating the still available OHC and IHC and to "trick" the brain more sound reception is available so it decreases the 'volume knob'.

But of course if there is much more energy in the higher frequencies the left over OHC might react wierdly.

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TallDude

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Posts: 121
Reply with quote  #10 
Found this site with high quality files and various test files for your hearing.

https://www.audiocheck.net

F.e. Blind Testing a 10 kHz Upper Hearing Limit
https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_frequency.php?frq=10

No way i can hear any difference between white noise with or without frequencies above 10kHz

Probably not even 5kHz but unfortunally there is no test file.

WARNING! Turn down volume before clicking on any of these buttons.
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tfw7

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Posts: 7
Reply with quote  #11 
I find the type of noise called "speech blocker" the best for me (H and PT)
The one here is okay for me https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/whiteNoiseGenerator.php (in list on RHS)
I also have a wearable sound generator programmed to speech blocker - my therapist tried me on white, pink, brown and we settled on speech.
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JohnMarc

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Posts: 26
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TallDude
Just a thought.

White noise is characterized by having equal energy over all the frequencies of a given bandwidth.

Pink noise is characterized by energy that decreases by 50% for each increasing octave over all the frequencies of a given bandwidth.

Wouldn't WN be better for patients having hearing loss in the higher frequencies?

I think i tried WN just for a short period in my office once. For me it sounded unpleasant and for i can remember my T reacted to it, like light cricket sounds ... So i turned it of quickly.

Focus on H is of course stimulating the still available OHC and IHC and to "trick" the brain more sound reception is available so it decreases the 'volume knob'.

But of course if there is much more energy in the higher frequencies the left over OHC might react wierdly.



Theoretically yes white noise would be better for the reason you are saying. But I find it too harsh so I know it will aggravate my H psychologically if not also physiologically. So that is why I am not doing white noise, for now at least. Being able to do a more soothing pink noise for 5 hrs is better than doing an abrasive white noise for 1 hour.

Actually I am finding music to be a lot more therapeutic for me at the moment than pink noise. Luckily I work in an office in front of a computer all day so I can just play music on earphones all day long, which I pretty much did anyway before my H. As soon as I feel the slightest tinge of pain I pause my music right away. This way I find that I can restart after 5-10 mins. If I try to "power through" or push myself too hard, then the break I have to take is a lot longer and not worth it. I have learnt it over and over in the 8 months I've had H that pushing too hard out of greed/urgency/overconfidence is your biggest enemy.

Once my H improves enough that I know I can easily tolerate white noise for a long period of time then I might build that into my routine too, like you said it will help a lot more with the higher frequencies
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TallDude

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Posts: 121
Reply with quote  #13 
I also work in an office and use another computer to play pink noise combined with rain and bird sounds for hours (up to 10). Recent days however i have not been doing it as much as previously. I cannot play music because i wouldn't be able to concentrate on my work. I would start to focus on the music.

My H seems to be improving further. I can now say i have already comfortable LDL's.
I am taking 3 x 40mg Focuzine (Ginkgo biloba) daily for 10 days. Not sure if this is helping or it is just natural improvement but I will keep taking it.

T is still the same, but it is less bothersome, few months ago i couldn't imagine living with this. However, didn't get good news regarding my right eye yesterday, sight will not improve. I got a retina detachment and tear a few months ago together with my increasing T and H. Might also need another eye surgery in december.

Dr. Norena is very busy, so i didn't recieve my signal yet, but he confirmed he would send it to me.


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JohnMarc

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Posts: 26
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TallDude
I also work in an office and use another computer to play pink noise combined with rain and bird sounds for hours (up to 10). Recent days however i have not been doing it as much as previously. I cannot play music because i wouldn't be able to concentrate on my work. I would start to focus on the music.

My H seems to be improving further. I can now say i have already comfortable LDL's.
I am taking 3 x 40mg Focuzine (Ginkgo biloba) daily for 10 days. Not sure if this is helping or it is just natural improvement but I will keep taking it.

T is still the same, but it is less bothersome, few months ago i couldn't imagine living with this. However, didn't get good news regarding my right eye yesterday, sight will not improve. I got a retina detachment and tear a few months ago together with my increasing T and H. Might also need another eye surgery in december.

Dr. Norena is very busy, so i didn't recieve my signal yet, but he confirmed he would send it to me.




Sorry about your eye problem. But I'm happy for you that your LDLs are improving so fast! Pink plus rain plus birds is a good combination. I'm trying to figure out a way to do such sound layering through my phone, ie able to play Spotify plus pink noise etc at the same time. Can't think of any way other than using my phone along with an old phone in my drawer and connecting them through a 3.5mm combiner into my headphones, then playing music on one phone and pink noise on the other. I can't use my work computer to play sounds for my therapy so my only option is phone.
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gvkk

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Posts: 18
Reply with quote  #15 
Pianist, teach piano. Just teaching one lesson on the piano can trigger an upset! I can't imagine being around anything louder. By upset, I mean if the H or T starts to calm down, the piano can start the whole process over. I'm beginning to hate my work and I never practice piano, haven't for about 2 years, played a little and regretted it, could never really deal with real practice again, I probably never will again and yes, I am getting rusty. My only saving factor is that I've played piano for 66 years. 

And yes - the doctor thinks that age has something to do with my problems. Maybe it does, but who knows for sure. I think it's circumstantial. Tinnitus came about when I was pregnant, the H came when I had the flue, really got bad last December. 

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TallDude

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Posts: 121
Reply with quote  #16 
I have had several loud noise exposures recent days. Friday 14 september i joined my wife and daughter at here proclamation. I doubted if i would join them untill the last moment but eventually i did. There were about 600 people and i used my earplugs most of the time. However, i was so confident i unplugged them and faced the people applauding for quit a few times.
I did get a small setback and slight painfull ears the days after but certainly not as bad as previously.
Last week i was fixing the endcaps of our kitchentable tubes in the (concrete) basement of my home. These are metal tubes 60mm diameter and 80cm long. One of them rolled from my
table and dropped to the ground right in front of me. It was loud but i didn't jump.
I had to go to the hospital for a checkup on my eye, faced the crowded waiting rooms but just used earplugs for the drive. No problem.
Yesterday we all together went to a city to get lunch in a restaurant and some shopping. I only used earplugs for the 40 minutes ride towards and back. The streets were crowded, however restaurant was not busy and i stayed outside the shops with very loud music.
I was a bit scared but today i'm fine and have no pain, maybe ears feel just a little bit uncomfortable, but certainly not as bad as previously. About two months ago we did exactly the same (city visit) and i wore my earplugs almost all of the time. I had painfull ears and increased H for about a week.

My H nowadays seems to improve exponentially, which of course is great.

Remember I come from whispering with family members, changing places on the table to avoid speaking into my worst ear, lubricating squeaky doorhandles, handling cutlery, paper and plastic bags very gentle, you name it etc...
As a result at some days I was mentally in really bad shape...

I'm still not convinced H is just all about brain plasticity. How would you explain the pains after loud exposures and stressfull situations?

How about the ear's protective mechanism?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Sound/protect.html#c1

The stapedius muscle and the tensor tympani muscle act in response to loud sounds.

Recently i actually haven't been doing sound enrichment much because my daughter was also in my office all day. So recent improvement certainly wouldn't come from that, allthough of course i do sound enrichtment by exposing me to normal sounds in daily life. I avoided wearing ear plugs as much as possible.

Maybe my stapedius muscle and tensor tympani muscle are getting in better shape because of taking Focuzine and thus are able to better protect my inner ears? Ginkgo biloba extract is known to "thin" the blood and increase blood flow. This might be particularly helpful in the small capillaries of ears and it's muscles?

There is however difference in LDL according frequencies. Clapping my hands loud generates 93dB (calibrated dB meter, Sauter su130). This doesn't feel uncomfortable now. However dropping a small plastic bottle cap from about 2 meters to a tile floor can generate up to 73dB (it depends on how it lands) and it still feels uncomfortable. Also sounds coming from glass and porcelain can be uncomfortable.

But it is known that the ear's protective mechanism mainly works best in the lower frequencies. This would also explain why damage in the ears starts at the higher frequencies.








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TallDude

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Posts: 121
Reply with quote  #17 
But then my T decided to take a u-turn. You members are also probably familiar with sudden loud temporary T for a few seconds and than it fades away. I got that yesterday when i was working in my office on the computer. However this time it didn't fade. 24 hours now still there. Had a really bad night.
H is however still the same. It is not a setback as a experienced before, usually I have pain. Not this time, just louder T.  This is getting out of hand. I'm totally in despair...
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M

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Posts: 19
Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMarc


Sorry about your eye problem. But I'm happy for you that your LDLs are improving so fast! Pink plus rain plus birds is a good combination. I'm trying to figure out a way to do such sound layering through my phone, ie able to play Spotify plus pink noise etc at the same time. Can't think of any way other than using my phone along with an old phone in my drawer and connecting them through a 3.5mm combiner into my headphones, then playing music on one phone and pink noise on the other. I can't use my work computer to play sounds for my therapy so my only option is phone.


Hi John can i send u a pm ?
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