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Marilyn

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Reply with quote  #1 
This thread is for those who suffer from soft sound sensitivity.  Specifically my friend Paul, and JenMcK.

I rarely watch Dr. Phil, but watched a bit of today's program.  (July 2.)  People had written in asking if they were the only ones with various problems.  A teenage girl had problems with specific sounds bothering her.  People eating, birds chirping, a dog barking, etc.

Dr. Phil told the girl to first be checked out by an audiologist to make sure her problem wasn't caused by sensitive hearing.  He said if not, he could easily fix her problem of certain sounds bothering her.  He said she had an anxiety response to those sounds. 

Dr. Phil said there was an easy method to eliminate the anxiety response to irritating sounds by teaching you certain control methods in the presence of stimuli.  With his therapists, the typical time of systematic desensitization usually took 10-12 hours.

Maybe you could email or call Dr. Phil's program and ask for more information.


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Marilyn

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I went back and caught the end of the program and got the contact number.  It's 866-437-7445 (866-4DR-PHIL) 

To comment or ask questions about today's program, the website is http://www.drphil.com There is a 'contact' tab on the home page, or you can ask a question on his blog web page.  http://blog.drphil.com

It would be great if there really is an easy answer for you guys.


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SandyTH

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Apparently, Dr. Phil has done two or three shows on this condition.   Below are some excerpts from his show that aired originally in January, including a short video of a conversation he is having with a woman named Andrea.  Andrea, who seems to have misophonia, was the guest that day.   It is my understanding, The Dr. Phil website includes a message board with a former member of this board participating on this subject.   If you want more information, you can also request a transcript or video of the show, which aired January 8, 2010. 

 

If anyone is located on the west coast, this show will be on today at 4 PM.  In addition, I believe it will repeat next Friday evening at 7 PM.

 

I hope everyone will find the following information useful. 

 

Sandy

…..

 

“I am annoyed by sniffing, people clearing their throats, coughing,” Andrea says. “I wear my earplugs every single place I go. Aside from the sniffing, there are a lot of other things that annoy me. One of the biggest things is we have this dog in our neighborhood. When she barks, it drives me nuts,” she says. “Dry chomping – it’s a term I made up. It’s like chomping with no food in your mouth. I don’t even know how to explain it. It’s like this slobbering noise. It’s disgusting.”    She tells another girl, “By the way, stop dry chomping, because I can hear you.  “I’m not”,  the girl says, leaving the room.

 

“Of course, they get all upset,” Andrea says. “They don’t understand what they’re doing. No one else seems to hear it but me. I’ll whip in my earplugs immediately because I cannot stand it. So, another thing that I’m bothered by: in the morning, my mother straightens her hair. I don’t know how she does it, but just the way she sets the straightener down on the counter. So, Dr. Phil, am I the only one who’s annoyed by this stuff?”

 

Andrea tells Dr. Phil the noises that annoy her are like fingernails on a chalkboard for a normal person. “It’s, like, 10 times worse,” she says. Andrea guesses that it has something to do with anxiety.

…..

“I want to answer this very seriously for you because I know it’s really bothering you,” Dr. Phil says. “The first thing you have to do is rule out any kind of medical causation here. You should talk to someone, because some people can have hypersensitive hearing, so it’s like a radio turned up all the way, all the time, and there are things that can be done to desensitize you in that regard, if that’s what’s going on. I’m guessing that’s not the case, but it could be.”

Andrea says she hopes to get help so she can stop wearing earplugs all day.   

Dr. Phil explains that she can get control of this anxiety in as little as 10 to 12 hours. He offers her help to learn systematic desensitization. “We are going to eliminate your anxiety response to those stimuli and then let you just be happy and go on with your life.”



Dr. Phil explains how she can fix this problem.

 

Whether you live in fear that a frog will jump on you or are consumed by thoughts of dirt in your kitchen, Dr. Phil suggests you try self-directed systematic desensitization to overcome your fear.

Though some people are paralyzed by a fear for their entire life, the typical time it takes to treat and eliminate a phobia is less than 10 hours. Your fear may have nothing to do with the stimulus that sends your heart racing, so you can slowly learn to confront it and overcome your phobia.


Step One: Relax. This is a hard step because even when the stimulus is not present, you may not know how to relax. Learning how to relax takes practice and time. You may want to try:

 

  • Breathing techniques
  • Repeating a mantra
  • Listening to slow drum beats
  • Listening to relaxing music
  • Moving from one foot to the other while listening to slow music

Step Two: Introduce the least threatening aspect of the stimulus. For example, if you are petrified of frogs, you may want to start by getting comfortable looking at a picture of a frog. If that's too much for you to start with, try imagining a forest where there may be a frog, or the sound of a frog, or simply try looking at the word "frog." Use your relaxation technique to calm yourself as you introduce this element. You may also want to use imagery to demonstrate that you have conquered this aspect, such as throwing the picture in the trash, or blowing it away with your breath.

Step Three: Gradually move closer to facing the phobia.
Select the next level of fearful aspect of the phobia and repeat the process. Using these successive approximations, you should avoid projecting too quickly onto the full phobia image. Be careful not to go too far in conquering your fear. For example, if you are afraid of fire, you need not get to a point where you feel comfortable walking on coals! Functioning daily without the fear interfering may be the right place for you to stop.

One trick may be to imagine yourself as someone else, such as Superman or Wonder Woman, as long as you are still recognizing that you are under your own power. When your alter-ego has conquered the fear, then try switching back to your ordinary self.

Step Four: Generalize your relaxation to other parts of your world. Oftentimes the phobias may be triggered by other cues. For example, you may have been feeling a loss of power that somehow became associated with frogs. But this sense of vulnerability can be aroused by other stimuli. By relaxing to the many things that happen in your life, you can minimize the chances of arousing your phobia.

Andrea gives an update since the show:

 

After speaking with Dr. Phil, he told me that he was going to arrange for me to be sent to the PNP Center in Lewisville, Texas to undergo a type of therapy called systematic desensitization. Basically, my problem was that I was super sensitive to certain noises. The doctors at the center were wonderful. I could tell that they truly cared about me and wanted this issue to go away just as much as I did. Dr. Peavey was very firm in telling me that I had to believe that it was possible to be fixed from this. She tossed her clipboard in the middle of the room and said, "There's your problem. We're leaving it here at the PNP Center today, and you will leave without it."

 

Next, I spoke with a therapist who believed that I developed this from a past bad relationship. She explained that I may have used these sounds as my escape from everything that was going on with my boyfriend. I then spoke to another doctor who told me how to relax while in stressful or anxious situations. She had me use a device called an EmWave. It helped to control my breathing and help me calm down.

 

At the end of the therapy, I met Dr. Lawlis. He gave me some useful tips as well. He and Dr. Peavey then gave me my own EmWave as a gift. I have been using it daily and I love it. When I got home, I decided it was time to put all my therapy to a test. I always had to wear ear plugs while visiting a relative of mine, so she was the one who I went to see. Once I started to be bothered by the dry chomping she was doing, I took deep breaths. I didn't have to wear my ear plugs the whole time, which was a huge step for me. I am still annoyed by certain things, but not to the point that I need ear plugs with me all the time. There are still things I need to work on myself, but with all this help, I am determined to get past this and move on with my life.

 

http://drphil.com/slideshows/slideshow/5518/?id=5518&slide=1&showID=1374&preview=&versionID=

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Johnloudb

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Reply with quote  #4 

It's very good to hear about this Marilyn and Sandy. Thanks for sharing!

John


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Gizmookie

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This show was a re-run I think.  Not to offend anyone but Dr. Phil annoys me.  He thinks he knows everything.   If he thinks this is an "easy" method to eliminate anxiety for Misophonia he's dead wrong.  It's not easy.  And it's not going to happen in 10-12 hours.  If it does, then I would strongly question whether that person has Misophonia to begin with.   Sure, over time this may help relieve a bit of the anxiety, but it is not going to cure the underlying problem.  We need people to find out what that is before we can ever find out how to ultimately FIX it.   Plus... did Dr. Phil ever even use the word "Misophonia"?   Just curious.
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Johnloudb

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Reply with quote  #6 

I agree with you Giz, but I haven't seen the show and I'm interested in hearing his opinions on treatment. I happen to enjoy his show. I have made some very big steps forward in short periods of time with misophonia, usually with sounds I can't avoid. I face my disaffections relax, think good thoughts, sometimes it's happened in hours or days. 

I've taken some big steps back, quickly too. I certainly don't think people can be cured in 12 hours. It can take years. I think Dr. Phil has a lot of good ideas though. For instance I like his opinions on weight loss - how loosing weight is about changing lifestyle and behavior patterns, and of course taking in less calories.

With sounds I can avoid I don't make such good progress, forward but much slower.


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Marilyn

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Reply with quote  #7 
Thanks Sandy for finding the information about the program.  Yeah, that's the program I watched.  I agree with both Gizmookie and John.  Giz, I'd forgotten you suffer from it. 

I don't know if 10-12 hours of treatment would suddenly cure a person having selective sound sensitivity.  I do think principals could be effectively taught during that amount of time then the person implement it into their life.

I just thought it would be good information seeing how there is very little out there to help those of you who have problems with specific sounds.


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Gizmookie

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Don't get me wrong... I think the info he provided is most certainly helpful.  But, I disagree with him when he said that we "decide" to focus on a certain sound, and that is why we have the problem.  So basically he's telling me that until age 12 eating sounds never bothered me and then suddenly one day, out of the blue, I "decided" it will bug me.  That is ridiculous.  If I did decide it then it should be just as easy to un-decide it.  I also disagree when he claims that those with this sound sensitivity have "complete control" over their reaction.  You maybe can learn to calm yourself down after the fact, but even after working on this over time, the initial reaction is the same.  It's like our brain is wired that way.  It's annoying.  

But you are right Marilyn... there is little info out there for any of us, so this is better than nothing for those who have this condition. 

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Debbie

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Gizmookie said,

'You maybe can learn to calm yourself down after the fact, but even after working on this over time, the initial reaction is the same. It's like our brain is wired that way.'

The nature of onset of this condition and it's unique patterns and expressions shared countlessly by perfect strangers, virtually none of whom, despite efforts to do so, link the onset to a definitive trauma relating to sound or anything else makes the idea that this syndrome is learned or conditioned seem even less rational than the symptoms of this condition.

Even in cases of definitive trauma, I would suggest that the outcomes in terms of the expression of trauma (forms of phobias etc.) would vary dramatically from person to person in nature and would rarely if ever involve the 'ability' to train such extreme, continuous and daily focus year after year even on the subject of the original trauma.

Moreover, shaking, fear, nausea, sadness and others would be just as likely emotional experiences, perhaps much more so, than the instantaneous and extreme form of anger, basically as fast as a reflex, that is described over and over again by sufferers from all walks of life.

I would further suggest that in those who truly have been traumatized, to a degree that has led to dramatic, in itself traumatic and daily, consistent symptoms of any kind for decades afterwards, we would be seeing people who have somehow not yet recognized that they have a problem and who have not committed themselves to therapies in the past or called themselves 'crazy' out of frustration as many if not most of the misophonia sufferers on this board have.
I suggest that a true phobia or conditioned, learned response is amenable to psycho therapies when the insight, will, desire and commitment of the sufferer is in place as it is for the misophonia sufferers who have sought therapeutic help over the years.

Dr. Phil is right: a phobia can fold rather efficiently with the properly directed reconditioning. Even a deeper seated, learned, conditioned response to trauma can be unwound with therapy so that the symptoms themselves shrink dramatically with the properly aimed therapy and can even dissolve.

But as Gizmookie said, reflecting what has also been indicated by many others with misophonia, the underlying pattern of misophonia remains despite working on any 'issues' with therapies.

Cognitive behavioral skills are clearly supportive to coping and working around misophonia so that life can still be enjoyed, but the misophonia remains to be managed.

Popularizing and informing about misophonia could be a blessing to sufferers when a clear picture is offered of the nature and scope of the condition, and to explain that there are management tools out there to take the edge off, but by naively and presumptuously boxing misophonia into the category of 'phobia' or any other learned and conditioned response when, upon more careful consideration, this possibility seems remote, Dr. Phil with all his media power may be doing more harm than good.

When introduced to misophonia as a conditioned response, the way Dr. Phil seems to be explaining it, viewers with misophonia along with friends, family and co-workers of those with misophonia will be empowered to play a blame game with the sufferer when the sufferer continues to have misophonia.

Since will, determination and commitment to therapy is supposed to be it's anwser, wouldn't the conclusion for believers of this hypothesis be that one who continues to suffer is not applying enough of these admirable qualities?

If we indeed find out that Dr. Phil has found the cure and end for misophonia (who knew?!) I will be the first to proclaim that he is worthy of his name and the end of it I would personally campaign to add the title, "King."
I would then lead an appeal to get Dr. Phil to cure hyperacusis and tinnitus.

To this end of either crowning Dr. Phil or at least showing us how much help 12 hours of marathon cognitive behavioral (or whatever other) therapy could bring to someone with misophonia, any takers on researching the full details of the results for Dr. Phil's misophonia clients?

I sincerely agree with Marilyn that this therapy process and it's results would be interesting and potentially helpful to know.

Debbie


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Marilyn

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debbie

The nature of onset of this condition and it's unique patterns and expressions shared countlessly by perfect strangers, virtually none of whom, despite efforts to do so, link the onset to a definitive trauma relating to sound or anything else makes the idea that this syndrome is learned or conditioned seem even less rational than the symptoms of this condition.

Even in cases of definitive trauma, I would suggest that the outcomes in terms of the expression of trauma (forms of phobias etc.) would vary dramatically from person to person in nature and would rarely if ever involve the 'ability' to train such extreme, continuous and daily focus year after year even on the subject of the original trauma.

Moreover, shaking, fear, nausea, sadness and others would be just as likely emotional experiences, perhaps much more so, than the instantaneous and extreme form of anger, basically as fast as a reflex, that is described over and over again by sufferers from all walks of life.

I would further suggest that in those who truly have been traumatized, to a degree that has led to dramatic, in itself traumatic and daily, consistent symptoms of any kind for decades afterwards, we would be seeing people who have somehow not yet recognized that they have a problem and who have not committed themselves to therapies in the past or called themselves 'crazy' out of frustration as many if not most of the misophonia sufferers on this board have.
I suggest that a true phobia or conditioned, learned response is amenable to psycho therapies when the insight, will, desire and commitment of the sufferer is in place as it is for the misophonia sufferers who have sought therapeutic help over the years.



Debbie, do you have scientific data to support your hypothesis?



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Marilyn

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmookie
Don't get me wrong... I think the info he provided is most certainly helpful.  But, I disagree with him when he said that we "decide" to focus on a certain sound, and that is why we have the problem.  So basically he's telling me that until age 12 eating sounds never bothered me and then suddenly one day, out of the blue, I "decided" it will bug me.  That is ridiculous.  If I did decide it then it should be just as easy to un-decide it.  I also disagree when he claims that those with this sound sensitivity have "complete control" over their reaction.  You maybe can learn to calm yourself down after the fact, but even after working on this over time, the initial reaction is the same.  It's like our brain is wired that way.  It's annoying.  



Gizmookie, Here's a quote from 'TRT: Clinical Guidelines' by James A. Henry, Dennis R. Trune, Michael J.A. Robb, & Pawel J. Jastreboff.

"Misophonia

Most patients with hyperacusis also have misophonia.  Misophonia literally means "dislike of sound."  Hyperacusis is the result of overamplification in the auditory system.  In contrast, misophonia results from emotional and autonomic reactions to sounds.  Thus with misophonia the limbic and autonomic nervous systems are activated whenever a sound causes discomfort.  These reactions are a result of conditioned reflexes.  In other words, the brain learns to interpret certain sounds as uncomfortable or annoying.  These sounds are annoying because they are associated with negative memories.  When these memories are evoked by the sounds, there are emotional and autonomic (or stress) reactions to these sounds.  Misophonia involves the same connections in the brain as for a tinnitus problem.  These connections are between the auditory, limbic, and autonomic nervous systems, as shown in the neurophysiological model.

Treating Misophonia

To treat misophonia, the connections between the auditory, limbic, and autonomic nervous systems that cause the emotional reactions must be retrained.  This retraining occurs by active extinction of conditioned reflexes that are responsible for the reactions to sounds.  This is accomplished by consistently creating a positive association with sound by, for example, listening to pleasant sound while paying attention to it.  The key is to listen to these sounds, which is different from having sounds in the background that are essentially ignored.  This active listening process results in positive feelings about listening to these sounds, which is what extinguishes the conditioned reflexes."  (Page 123)

I recommend purchasing this book.  It can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/Tinnitus-Retraining-Therapy-Clinical-Guidelines/dp/1597561541/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278339071&sr=1-1-spell

Hope this helps. 




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Debbie

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Reply with quote  #12 
Dear Marilyn,

As far as I know, there is no 'scientific' data to back up the presiding hypothesis about misophonia - at least of the nature described by Gizmookie - that with misophonia:

"These reactions are a result of conditioned reflexes.  In other words, the brain learns to interpret certain sounds as uncomfortable or annoying.  These sounds are annoying because they are associated with negative memories."

I base my opinions about misophonia on the reasoning I have shared in this thread and others.

Debbie

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Marilyn

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Reply with quote  #13 
Debbie, I am specifically asking about these words you posted:  "...Even in cases of definitive trauma, I would suggest that the outcomes in terms of the expression of trauma (forms of phobias etc.) would vary dramatically from person to person in nature and would rarely if ever involve the 'ability' to train such extreme, continuous and daily focus year after year even on the subject of the original trauma."

Okay, so your statement above in which you said "rarely if ever involve the 'ability' to train such extreme, continuous and daily focus year after year ..."  is your hypothesis, unsubstantiated by scientific data. 

I find it highly objectionable to tell people their condition is rarely treatable, especially without any scientific data. 

I want it on the record that I think selective sound sensitivity is very treatable.







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Debbie

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Reply with quote  #14 

Hi Marilyn,
 
I am thinking you have misunderstood me because I, too, strongly believe that the psychic suffering from misophonia can be treated so that a person with misophonia has a great shot at being able to manage the condition and enjoy life.
The purpose of my posts has been 100% motivated by this strong belief, and the desire for people not to get discouraged after having sought certain kinds of treatment and finding that the underlying pattern of misophonia still exists.  

The kind of discouragement and feelings of failure, and self-doubt, that could lead to lot of unnecessary, difficult emotional communication that involves blame from within and/or without (from family, friends, co-workers, or even a misguided therapist, or oneself) and could lead some to feel at wit's end before a real (and attainable) solution is experienced.
 
What I was trying to express (in an obviously not well worded sentence) had nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of treatability.
 
The sentence meant to say that I do not believe that trauma from negative experiences with sound, or any other emotional trauma explains all the details of eating/mouth/clicking sounds form of misophonia that are repeated to a "T" by many different sufferers who have never met.
 
I believe that it would be very unlikely that even exposure to traumatic noises, in and of themselves, or to any emotional trauma would lead to this exact pattern repeated over so many people, especially (although still a bit besides the other points) people who, despite sometimes many attempts at therapy, do not seem to be able to recall a definitive trauma.
 
I was saying that, in addition to all of the other details of the condition, that the type of very, very acute and tireless 'ability' to focus on these specific sounds and hear their nuances, as described by those with misophonia, could, again, be considered an actual "ability."
And that this ability, as expressed as if in carbon copy from one stranger with misophonia to the next, in that exact pattern repeated over and over, and even more so when combined with all of the other details about the onset and components of the condition, is not something that seems likely to be able to be "trained" into a brain.


(from my post

"The nature of onset of this condition and it's unique patterns and expressions shared countlessly by perfect strangers, virtually none of whom, despite efforts to do so, link the onset to a definitive trauma relating to sound or anything else makes the idea that this syndrome is learned or conditioned seem even less rational than the symptoms of this condition.

Even in cases of definitive trauma, I would suggest that the outcomes in terms of the expression of trauma (forms of phobias etc.) would vary dramatically from person to person in nature and would rarely if ever involve the 'ability' to train such extreme, continuous and daily focus year after year even on the subject of the original trauma.

Moreover, shaking, fear, nausea, sadness and others would be just as likely emotional experiences, perhaps much more so, than the instantaneous and extreme form of anger, basically as fast as a reflex, that is described over and over again by sufferers from all walks of life.

I would further suggest that in those who truly have been traumatized, to a degree that has led to dramatic, in itself traumatic and daily, consistent symptoms of any kind for decades afterwards, we would be seeing people who have somehow not yet recognized that they have a problem and who have not committed themselves to therapies in the past or called themselves 'crazy' out of frustration as many if not most of the misophonia sufferers on this board have.
I suggest that a true phobia or conditioned, learned response is amenable to psycho therapies when the insight, will, desire and commitment of the sufferer is in place as it is for the misophonia sufferers who have sought therapeutic help over the years.

Dr. Phil is right: a phobia can fold rather efficiently with the properly directed reconditioning. Even a deeper seated, learned, conditioned response to trauma can be unwound with therapy so that the symptoms themselves shrink dramatically with the properly aimed therapy and can even dissolve.

But as Gizmookie said, reflecting what has also been indicated by many others with misophonia, the underlying pattern of misophonia remains"


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Gizmookie

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn

Gizmookie, Here's a quote from 'TRT: Clinical Guidelines' by James A. Henry, Dennis R. Trune, Michael J.A. Robb, & Pawel J. Jastreboff.

(in part)

Thus with misophonia the limbic and autonomic nervous systems are activated whenever a sound causes discomfort.  These reactions are a result of conditioned reflexes.  In other words, the brain learns to interpret certain sounds as uncomfortable or annoying.  These sounds are annoying because they are associated with negative memories.


Yes, I have read this info before.  I just don't get how my brain could "learn" to hate the sound of popcorn munching overnight... literally.  One of my favorite things to do as a kid was all pile on the sofa with a big tub of popcorn and have movie marathons with my family.  I love popcorn  myself and still eat it.  There were NO negative memories involved in this.  And now, even though popcorn munching annoys me I still have NO negative memory of it.  It makes no sense to me.  This would all make sense if I had a negative experience as a child with someone taunting me with a certain sound and then grew up hating that sound.  Negative memory of sound = annoyed by sound. 



To treat misophonia, the connections between the auditory, limbic, and autonomic nervous systems that cause the emotional reactions must be retrained.  This retraining occurs by active extinction of conditioned reflexes that are responsible for the reactions to sounds.  This is accomplished by consistently creating a positive association with sound by, for example, listening to pleasant sound while paying attention to it.  The key is to listen to these sounds, which is different from having sounds in the background that are essentially ignored.  This active listening process results in positive feelings about listening to these sounds, which is what extinguishes the conditioned reflexes."  (Page 123)

I've been working on CBT for over a year now.  I do it daily, trying to "retrain" my brain.  It's "treating" my misophonia but it's certainly not extinguishing the responses.  They still occur just the same.   I'd like them to figure out more than just how to "treat" it.

I have a wonderful friend that I met at work.  We've only known each other a year but feel as though we've known each other since birth.   She is aware of my condition but I've told her to not act differently around me than she normally would just for my sake.  We went to the movies the other night.  We were having a lovely time and my mind wasn't even thinking of sounds like it used to before hand.  That's one thing I have leaned is to not anticipate the sounds I "might" hear such as popcorn munching.  Anyhow, we were in the lobby which was packed full of people and we were having a conversation when out of the blue... "POP"... someone popped their gum from across the room.   I was talking at the time and the next thing I remember is my friend grabbing my arm and asking, "you alright?".  She told me that it was like I "zoned out" as soon as that gum popped.   To be honest, I don't even remember what I was saying to her at that point.   She then proceeded to tell me... "wow, that was really strange... it's like your brain got zapped in that moment". 

She gets it, and she doesn't even have it.  I love her to death! 




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DrJ

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Reply with quote  #16 
I have followed these cases and this tv show and would ask..

1) did anyone follow up with "Andrea" a few months later?  I wonder about the persistence of the positive effects of that clinical day

2) how did the 'bad' relationship decide to affect the auditory system?  Reminds me of, hmm, Sigmund Freud's theory

3) does anyone really know HOW to disconnect the signal-reaction unconscious response who can "prove" it using clinical data of any sort, whatsoever?  I would sure like to see that, I know what is stated that 'can' be done, but I would like to see data on how that went over time and with various parameters for measuring.  I could tell you that  I can fly. Yup.  But don't you want to see me do it?

Marsha Johnson

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saab1216

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Reply with quote  #17 
I think the most plausible cause for Misophonia is hearing sensitivity period! If I didnt get Hyperacusis,I would have never experienced my strong dislike for certain sounds.It wasnt a childhood experience of saliva sounds,eating sounds and the like. I do not agree on Dr. Phils "fix it" methods at all.He is getting paid to be the hero and that is all. I do appreciate all of the attention here on this subject and Marilyns boldness to bring it to the table.
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Johnloudb

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debbie
The sentence meant to say that I do not believe that trauma from negative experiences with sound, or any other emotional trauma explains all the details of eating/mouth/clicking sounds form of misophonia that are repeated to a "T" by many different sufferers who have never met.

Many people with misophonia don't have any problem with their own eating/mouth sounds. I've found when other people are in control of my disaffections, it raises my anxiety and I get angry. For instance even when I could tolerate most peoples voices very well, my dad's voice was real problem for me, cause he would always come in my room when my nerves were shot and talk to me (i.e. didn't respect my need for peace) and it'd make me really angry. 

I had to learn to relax and keep calm and not get excited. If my nerves were too shot I'd just cover my ears while he talked to me. But, I would usually give it a shot at first if I could. It took me much much longer to get where I could handle his voice, but now it no longer bothers me when he comes into talk to me. 

This idea that people with misophonia to eating/mouth sounds are somehow different is totally false IMO. It's just another sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmookie
I just don't get how my brain could "learn" to hate the sound of popcorn munchingovernight... literally.  One of my favorite things to do as a kid was all pile on the sofa with a big tub of popcorn and have movie marathons with my family.  I love popcorn  myself and still eat it.  There were NO negative memories involved in this.  And now, even though popcorn munching annoys me I still have NO negative memory of it.  It makes no sense to me.

Many people with phobias never know how it happened. They just had a phobic response for some reason. The conditioning comes afterward when people dislike/fear their symptoms. Doesn't mean it permanent or neurological damage. They are often successfully treated. 

Ears make mistakes sometimes, and conditioned reflexes need practice. The central nervous system is in a constant state of flux and we are always evaluating and re-evaluating sounds. I don't think any initial conditioning is required for a sound to become bothersome. Just changes in our sound environment or emotional state can affect how we respond to sounds.



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Johnloudb

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.J
I have followed these cases and this tv show and would ask..

1) did anyone follow up with "Andrea" a few months later?  I wonder about the persistence of the positive effects of that clinical day

2) how did the 'bad' relationship decide to affect the auditory system?  Reminds me of, hmm, Sigmund Freud's theory

3) does anyone really know HOW to disconnect the signal-reaction unconscious response who can "prove" it using clinical data of any sort, whatsoever?  I would sure like to see that, I know what is stated that 'can' be done, but I would like to see data on how that went over time and with various parameters for measuring.  I could tell you that  I can fly. Yup.  But don't you want to see me do it?

Marsha Johnson

I find your ridiculing of Dr. Phil's suggestions offensive. There are some helpful suggestions there and it sounds like Andrea found the treatment helpful. Why not offer some helpful advice, like Marilyn was doing when she started this thread?

Learning how to relax is very important. I doubt the relaxation exercises he mentioned would help me, but might help some people. I like visualization to help me relax.

Most of what I hear on this board is people distressing over their symptoms and saying how much they dislike or hate this or that sound. You can't do that!!!

"Dr. Peavey was very firm in telling me that I had to believe that it was possible to be fixed from this."
 
That's extremely important IMO, beliefs have a very powerful affect on our auditory system and everything we do actually.

My biggest step forward in was when I ventured out to a TRT doctor for an hour long road trip, after spending 4 years indoors. I used visualization for a month before the trip, only thinking good thoughts about it and picturing a enjoyable trip. 

I decided against using any ear protection, despite my dad's loud VW Diesel Jetta, a sound which previously  hurt my ears all the time. I had heard the sound quietly for short periods though the window in my room for years though. That probably helped. 

The car was really loud at first and I had to tell my dad to turn it off for a minute. I thought good thoughts. Then we were off.

This trip didn't start out well but I faced my disaffections (hurt ears, neuropathy, stuffy head) and thought good thoughts. Once I got there I felt great. And not a sound in the doctors office bothered me. I had a pleasant trip back. 2 months later I was eating out with my parents and going on drives. 

The progress I made in that one day eclipsed what I had done in the 4 years prior. Though, I know it was necessary for me to start out slowly due to my extreme initial sensitivities.

I maintained that progress for years, but had some set backs. 

My TRT doctor could have really helped me if he had a better understanding of the Jastreboff model.

John

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Reply with quote  #20 

To Everyone,

 

After doing some research after seeing Marilyn’s thread, I immediately thought about Jen who has been struggling with this issue for years.  I later viewed the show and saw nothing in it that was different from any discussion on this board with regard to misopohonia and ways to desensitize.   I am sorry this thread has turned into such controversy and negativity.  So much brouhaha over a show no one has seen.

 

I want to set the record straight with regard to some of the words I have written.

 

Nowhere did Dr. Phil use the word “cure.”  What he does try to advocate is managing our issues, managing our stress and managing our anxiety.    In Andrea’s case, it is regarding the management of her anxiety toward sounds that bother her.  I do not have a problem with what he is trying to convey.

 

 Andrea seems to have misophonia” are my words, not words used by Dr. Phil.   I used that word solely for the purpose of this website and mainly for Jen who has been under stress by this for such a long time.   As far as I know, those in the hyperacusis community are the only ones using the word misophonia. 

 

It is important to see the whole show in its entirety and not just from an excerpt taken out of context before passing judgment or because one has negative feelings about Dr. Phil himself.  I am not here defending him but I think it would be a shame for someone like Jen to be discouraged from looking into this type of therapy, which sounds like CBT, due to the critical nature of this discussion.

 

Perhaps there are those folks who will be helped by availing themselves to 10 or 12 one hour sessions and maybe some need more or less time but doing nothing will not help anyone.  I feel sad for those struggling with this due to so much disapproval by those in discussion who only have a small piece of the puzzle because some participants have not had a chance to view the whole show.

 

Causation is very necessary when we have a communicable disease but it is not always necessary with all our ailments.  I think I know what caused my hyperacusis but I am not really sure.  My only concern was fixing it and fix it I did through my own method of desensitization and not the tried-and-true TRT.

 

What is wrong with trying to manage one’s anxiety toward negative stimuli through desensitization with a trained therapist?   I always keep an open mind, however, as of now; I do not see anything wrong with it.

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Billymoe

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Reply with quote  #21 
Hi SandyTH
What was your method of desensitization

Bill M.
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catlady2323

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Reply with quote  #22 
Hi Debbie,

I like your thoughtful and critical thinking approach to sound sensitivity treatment protocols.  Please continue to post your critiques and the results of your studies.

Debbie said : "
And that this ability, as expressed as if in carbon copy from one stranger with misophonia to the next, in that exact pattern repeated over and over, and even more so when combined with all of the other details about the onset and components of the condition, is not something that seems likely to be able to be "trained" into a brain."

I think this is a very intelligent and insightful observation, and goes to the theory that such sensitivities are not trauma based, but are instead based in a similar physical pathology of the inner ears, or in the auditory pathways.  Hence "treatment protocols" are then reduced to basically learning coping strategies, rather than an actual cure.

Sharon

P.S. I suspect Dr.Phil's 10-12 hour "cure" for the anxiety caused by hearing certain sounds , is not a cure, but just teaching the person coping strategies for when they do encounter these sounds.  Andrea said: "
I am still annoyed by certain things, but not to the point that I need ear plugs with me all the time."   This shows she still has the underlying condition, but has learned coping strategies for when she encounters these sounds.

Since the Dr.Phil show was paying for Andreas treatment, her "belief" in the treatment did not cost her anything other than an endorsement of Dr.Phil.  But for those who would be paying out of their own pocket, and have limited funds available, I suspect they could find less costly ways to learn coping strategies for their sound sensitivities.


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aQuieterBreeze

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Reply with quote  #23 
Hi Sandy,

I think sometimes one may come across a line of thinking, or way of thinking about or viewing things ......
in ways they never thought of before - in ways that completely and  almost instantly make sense ....
and sometimes provide answers to questions we never even thought of to ask
(sometimes seeing or looking at things differently can be very helpful)
and maybe sometimes we have to be able to look at things differently in order for that to happen.
Maybe ones mind needs to be open - not closed at the time

Maybe sometimes the answers are there and we need to be ready or willing to see them .....
or recognize them and the insights we gain, when someone else helps us to do that.

And when that happens and it makes sense at a core or certain level,
I think sometimes it can cause a  shift, sometimes a dramatic shift - in the way someone  looks at or thinks about things.
Allowing one to look at things from a different perspective, one may never have even thought of before.
And sometimes that can be Life altering in the best sense of the term - life changing - in so many positive ways.....
I've not seen the the show you mention
and weather that is what happened in Andreas case or not - i think it is possible for it to happen -
with people in general - and the way we think about and view so many things in life......

So I would not discount the idea that a seemingly short session of therapy may have had some dramatic impact ..
When we find or discover insights  that allow us to think about things such as a challenge or even life in general differently,
in ways that are helpful to us and also resonate deeply and make sense in ways we never thought of before
it can be really helpful. But I think we have to be open to idea of seeing things differently in order for that to be able to happen ......

Thanks for your posts. It's good to see you here again.
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Reply with quote  #24 
Say John, I kind of am amazed that you are offended. 

I think it is a legitimate question, how does one obtain or acquire an auditory or central nervous system specific symptom by virtue of having a 'bad' relationship?

Did anyone here acquire hyperacusis because of a 'bad relationship'?

Let's do some discussing, John, ok?

MJ

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Johnloudb

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Reply with quote  #25 
Hey Dr. J, sure we can talk. Early in my parents marriage they were having some problems, my dad was really stressed out and that's when his tinnitus emerged. 

Stress can cause many health problems and cause people to quit their job. So, how is it that it couldn't be a factor in causing misophonia?

I'd just like to bring everyones attention to the person who started this thread, our friend Marilyn. She took an interest in helping some friends and brought Dr. Phil's show to peoples attention. That was really nice of her. 

Anyway, yesterday she left the message board because of some of the negative postings in this thread, I won't mention any names ... and I really want to Dr. J, but I think people can figure it out. She was offended.

She was tired of standing against those only trying to convince people they can't recover because of permanent damage. 

Do I have to tell people this is a very difficult health problem that requires a positive outlook and the belief you can recover? Apparently I do.

I feel really bad about her leaving and I don't like the tone the message board has taken lately. I'm tempted to leave myself, but I'll probably stick around.

Anyway, we talk via email, but I'm really going to miss her posting on the message board. She is such a positive voice and a really nice person. It's going to be a lonely board without her here.

John



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DrJ

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Reply with quote  #26 
Well John I am certainly very sorry to hear that. 

Although I can understand why sometimes people need to take a break.

As to your father, and stress, that is indeed quite a factor in the emergence of tinnitus.  Absolutely.  I could tell you about a dozen cases where people were emotionally upset by a variety of situations and developed tinnitus, and when we consider, say, blood pressure changes and hormone changes, and the delicate structures of the inner ear and brain, yes we could really begin to grasp how that might have happened.

But I myself am unaware of a single case of hyperacusis that developed after ONLY an emotional upset or a very stressful time, say, like a divorce.  Or a death.

Most of the cases of hyperacusis I have interviewed over 13 years have been around for a while, i.e., the person has always been noise sensitive or maybe there were parents or relatives with hyperacusis, or they struck their heads in accidents, or twisted their necks, or a medication or a poison induced the hyperacusis, or as a reaction to a severe illness or fever or a virus or maybe even a surgery, or probably most common, a very loud noise.

I hope you are really reading this John, as I really do want to know.  I have also as you well know, I am sure, spoken with hundreds of people who have specific sound sensitivities only to a handful or so of particular triggers, and the vast majority of these people developed this in the early childhood years, pre puberty, and so they did not have any 'bad relationships', I would imagine.

So I would like to know more about what Dr. Phil meant or what people have found, here, about that issue.  I believe, watching this show, that this lady has a lot of anxiety, although I am not a psychologist or qualified to make that diagnosis, and I believe we can certainly get that from our personal relations with people like parents, spouses, bosses, neighbors, etc. who can create a lot of uproar and emotional tidal waves.

But it is interesting to me how not one of the people I have personally spoken with has every cited, bad relationships have pushed me into misophonia or selective sound sensitivities.

Isn't it possible to have, independently, anxiety, panic disorder, depression, and these other things?  Sure it is.

So I am just trying to explain myself here a bit, and also to be a good clinician and say, ok, in 12 hours so much can certainly be headed in the right direction, absolutely, but the proof of the pudding for me is, what happened when the spotlight faded and a year goes by, then we will know the extent of the positive effect.

Cognitive therapy is critical for these individuals, often psychological counseling, too.  I truly believe that and refer them to these resources every day.

The fact is, Dr. Phil has a show to run, and he must keep a lively program, and he really does seem to be a very sharp guy and also a nice person.  But this is a TV show.  Like other TV shows, there is a lot more scripting than you would imagine possible.  Much it is predictable and the plan is in place well before the show actually takes place. 

Again, John, I am sorry that someone has left the hyperacusis network.  I think that there is so much here to gather in and grow with, that it is very sad when someone goes.  I have gone myself, I think twice, for a break.  And I rarely visit now, unless something catches my eye or someone sends me a private email to check out a thread.

MJ

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LynnMcLaren

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Reply with quote  #27 
Ohhhh, (((( Smiles )))))

I've been reading this thread and of course as on any message board there will be lots of different opinions and points of view and even though Dr Phil seems to be a real likeable guy as..
I use to watch his program and you never know....
His theraputic plan may be of help to people here and there and I like Marilyn too.. But I don't know as...
I also agree that other cases may be more challenging and digging deeper on that subject may not be a bad thing to do here and there.
And if it's upsetting to Marilyn ((((( Hugs ))))) maybe Dr J can start another thread on these thoughts and observations of hers as she is also a long time professional TRT etc provider and maybe it might be of interested in the way of seeing a different take on it just from her point of view on the subject.
Of course I don't see everything posted on the board or what has been deleted etc so I can't comment on that and lots of people have strong feelings on this and that, here and there.
And though for me as a mother of twins with autism I was stressed out long long before I developed the T and that could have came about from the constant screaming in my ears, viral etc..
Plus have had some very stressful situations in my younger days of my life and never developed tinnitus because of it nor hyperacusis disorder back then long ago. My ears use to be really really good in days gone by.
Lots of people have stress or stresser's in there life and not all highly stressed out people come down with any these conditions at all.
So I just think there has to be that something else factor and not all people are exactly the same either..
Maybe for some there is anxiety involved maybe for someone else it's more neurological or central nervous system based etc.
Also maybe the anxiety or stresser is the trigger but not the cause.
I do believe in postive voices thats always good. 
No problem with that but also discussions can be good too weither one agree's with them or not. 
It doesn't have to be written in stone and people can always do what they want with it anyway.
I'd like to read the discussion as I'm more mellow these days hyperacusis can be really really hard thats for sure.
If not here maybe on another thread were this subject can be discussed for discussion sake.. (((( Smiles ))))
If thats O.K. with Dr J of course.... I'll leave it all up to you.. 
It seems some people would like to discuss their point of view not to offend of course but to discuss, weither one may agree with it or not.
Hope Marilyn gets more better and better every day I really do.
So can we talk here or somewhere else? Whatever works best of course.
Stay Well Everybody....  (((((( Smiles ))))))        

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LynnMcLaren

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Reply with quote  #28 
Hmmmmm, (((( Smiles ))))

Thats what I think tooo...

Quote:

Isn't it possible to have, independently, anxiety, panic disorder, depression, and these other things?  Sure it is.



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Gizmookie

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SandyTH
I am not here defending him but I think it would be a shame for someone like Jen to be discouraged from looking into this type of therapy, which sounds like CBT, due to the critical nature of this discussion.


I agree.  I have been trying to help Jen do just that for months now.  She seems to have OCD as well (so do I), and I have told her that CBT could not only help her misophonia, but her OCD as well.   It's a positive thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnloudb
I'd just like to bring everyones attention to the person who started this thread, our friend Marilyn. She took an interest in helping some friends and brought Dr. Phil's show to peoples attention. That was really nice of her.Anyway, yesterday she left the message board because of some of the negative postings in this thread, I won't mention any names ... and I really want to Dr. J, but I think people can figure it out. She was offended.


I'm sorry that happened.  If this is me you are speaking of and I offended anyone with my opinions I apologize.  I was not out to attack Marilyn or anyone who likes Dr. Phil.  I just simply disagree with some things.  Anyone is welcome to disagree with me as well.  It doesn't mean that I, or others, don't appreciate that the info was brought to this board.  I also agree that this info could be helpful and it's worth trying out. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnloudb
She was tired of standing against those only trying to convince people they can't recover because of permanent damage.


If you look over my posts from the past, I for one am a definite believer in a positive attitude.  The fact is, we don't know everything about Misophonia or its beginnings.  We don't know how to "cure" it.  We don't know if it's permanent or not.  What we can do is try everything possible to manage it, which includes much of what Dr. Phil suggested to Andrea.  I don't object to trying things... believe me, I've tried it all.  All I can do is speak from my personal experience which includes my opinions.  

I just get tired of people (such as Dr. Phil) speaking about a subject that they really know nothing about.  They may think they know based on what they've read, or heard, but until they can provide some hard evidence of how it begins and ends then he knows no more than I do.   It doesn't mean I don't appreciate any advice they can offer (I've gotten some great advice from people here and it's helped me greatly), but I also appreciate it when people are honest in saying that they don't know if it will work, rather than say "it will work if you just do it" and then make you feel like you are not trying hard enough if it doesn't.   This is tough work.  It's endless work.

I can speak from experience when I say that though my defense mechanisms are working better from retraining my thought process (such as anticipatory anxiety), my reaction to the sounds is the exact same.  I can calm myself better after the fact with what I've learned as well. 

Am I trying to discourage anyone from trying to learn these tactics because I'm not "cured"... absolutely not.  Any relief is worth all the work I do daily and a positive attitude is a big part of it.   I'm just being honest about my personal experiences with this condition. 



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Johnloudb

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giz
 If this is me you are speaking of and I offended anyone with my opinions I apologize.  I was not out to attack Marilyn or anyone who likes Dr. Phil.  

No, you were not mentioned. I've always felt you're a positive person and I like the way you've tried to help Jen. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree ... I just don't care for the negative counseling by some here, it can really hurt people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giz
This is tough work.  It's endless work. 

That's exactly my point Giz. It's extremely hard and easy to get discouraged and think you can't move forward. Some sounds I've had a strong dislike to took me over a year to notice any improvement. But it happened. 

I'm not cured and don't know if I ever will reach that point, but I keep moving forward.


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Debbie

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Reply with quote  #31 
Hi all,

I just came in from being away for a couple of days and have not yet had the chance to read through the thread extremely carefully.
But one things SEEMS clear to me, and this is making me wonder just what is actually being disagreed upon. 

I could be wrong, but:
It seems like every single poster here AGREES that the hard work of cognitive behavioral therapy IS the means of MANAGEMENT of misophonia.
By management I mean that a person with these symptoms could find a way so that DESPITE the basic, underlying pattern (the sounds simply trigger a surge of highly unpleasant sensations,) one can learn/condition oneself not to dwell on the sensations beyond the intial surge, nor the inconvenience they cause during those particular moments nor any other "secondary" issue about them.

It seems like everyone here believes that the suffering of misophonia can potentially be modified considerably with CBT skills.
And that whether by perhaps toning down the perception of the sounds with masking or by becoming proficient at CBT or a combination of both approaches or more (such as additional treatments for any additional issues such as depression, anxiety, etc.) that misophonia is "treatable" in terms of it's impact on quality of life.

And correct me if I'm wrong...and really I may be....but it seems like everyone here is in 100% agreement that 'treating' misophonia by one or more of these means is to be deeply encouraged and the gains in quality of life celebrated as they unfold.....DESPITE misophonia (primary symptoms.)
Am I missing something?

Debbie

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Debbie

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Reply with quote  #32 
To be a bit clearer on my particular view:
1st (primary symptom) Surge of highly unpleasant sensations (of anger/rage) when faced with the sound of a certain category (OTHER peoples' noises of specified kinds - and yes sounds made by oneself and sounds made by others are processed differently by the brain - there are many differences in the sounds themselves and in the surrounding information about them as the data speeds towards brain when the sounds are self-made vs. other-derrived)

2nd set of symptoms: The formulation of opinions about the sounds, decisions to avoid the sounds, normative thoughts about the sources of the sounds (the person who is making the sounds 'should' not be making them,) dread of the sounds, self-blame for having the 'crazy' primary symptom,
possible blame from family members, friends and co-workers for having the primary and (perhaps mainly) the secondary symptoms,
a life spinning out of control due more, possibly, to the secondary symptoms...which only amplify (no pun intended) the primary symptoms, making their intensity and frequency even greater because now the "mind" is IN LEAGUE with the "brain's" faulty messages about the sounds, vs. deliberately (as with CBT) redirecting itself every time, at the very 1st opportunity to get a 'conscious grip' on the situation.

And, also with CBT, in the case of a trigger that is very prolonged (deskmate sniffling) developing a matter-of-fact pattern of doing what needs to be done to act with an acceptance of one's limitations, to minimize that prolonged scenario, without fanfare (fanfare meaning launching into any aspect of the secondary symptoms.)
And in the case of an unavoidable exposure, again, in the "CBT mindset," riding through it with as little fanfare (secondary symptoms) as possible.

CBT addresses the SECONDARY, NOT the primary SYMPTOMS.
CBT treats the person, to learn how to tone down all the mental emotional fanfare AROUND the primary symptoms which in turn amplify the primary symptoms.

Debbie 




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marilyn

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Reply with quote  #33 
I am very sorry my thread or deleting my user name caused anyone to be hurt.  Everyone posting here on the message board has a very kind heart with the intention of helping.

I won't go into details, but I had a very bad weekend.  I made a regrettable hasty decision by deleting my original user name. 

I hope we can all go forward in our progress.

P.S.
Maybe my new user name is fitting.  Being humbled by using lower case letters only
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Johnloudb

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Reply with quote  #34 
Hi Marilyn,

Welcome back! Well, I should have kept my big mouth shut. I was having bad day yesterday too ... for which you're partly responsible.   I apologize to everybody for my comments, I overreacted, and I'm sorry. 

John



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Debbie

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Reply with quote  #35 
The nutshell of the point I hoped to express earlier in this thread:

* Dr. Phil IS RIGHT on two counts:
1. A PHOBIA can probably be treated fully and quickly in a short period of time. 12 hours would be often more than enough time, I have seen this time and again.
2. The SECONDARY symptoms of misophonia would be treatable in large degree (followed by a lifetime of applying the learned CBT principals) to an ammenable client within 12 hours of sessions.
CBT in general is not a long term therapy - it is a practical training program.
These learned management skills, in my view, (with other therapies too if desired) could be the saving grace for a sufferer of ANY chronic health condition, especially including misophonia.

My concern is about the PRIMARY symptoms of misophonia (as I shared my views of in post #32) being considered due to learning and conditioning. I think that this understanding would probably be false, and a misunderstanding of the point of CBT might lead to disillusionment with treatment and burnout, making someone wary of the real help that could be achieved.

With a very highly motivated and insightful individual (as many if not most posters with misophonia seem to be,) learned and conditioned issues can be UNLEARNED, and, as Dr. Phil seems to put forth, in a surprisingly limited amount of time (followed by maintanance, depending on the duration and intensity of the former habit.)

I think that ample evidence, of many kinds, points to the primary symptoms of misophonia as NOT being learned (whereas the secondary symptoms would be,) and thus the goal of CBT would be NOT to stop the trigger sounds from triggering the primary symptoms...but instead to derrail the secondary symptoms.

The result: MANAGEMENT of misophonia so that the primary symptoms are, ideally, all that are left of the condition...and ideally by reducing the symptoms to the primary ones, this also raises the threshold of arousal of the primary symptoms a bit, so they themselves are triggered a bit less often and their edge is removed a bit.

My concern is that if this differentiation between primary and secondary misophonia symptoms is not made clear, that those with misophonia, and their families, friends, co-workers might garner unrealistic expectations of CBT which cause them to overlook the actual life-preserving gains that could be made with CBT.
And also, those who harbor these unrealistic expectations because of a misguided and mistaken belief that the primary symptoms of misophonia are learned might be tempted or prone to blame the sufferer for having any primary misophonia left to manage after CBT - because the person with CBT 'should' have been able to 'unlearn' them.
I think that leaving this potential room for blame or dissapointment open, would undermine the morale needed for getting the full results of CBT treatment and of experiencing the maximal amount of acceptance and understanding from others.
And even more so unfortunate in that the origens of such misunderstanding, I believe, would be based on wrong information.

My basic points:
A phobia or learned response such as the very troublesome and troubling secondary symptoms of misophonia can be unlearned, and often quickly and efficiently.
I agree with Dr. Phil on this.
And this would be the point of CBT for misophonia, not to cure the primary symptoms, which are very likely NOT learned and not evidence of a phobia.

Meanwhile: the way towards a "cure" of the primary symptoms of misophonia would probably be within the cutting edge of neurolgy research - not psychology.

And to confuse the two, to me, leaves individuals of any chronic physical condition vulnerable to discouragement and possibly an added (but misguided) burden of blame from within or without, because it makes it seem that the primary symptoms should completely be able to go away with cognitive therapies, and this is simply not what happens.

The secondary symptoms are what CBT treats, and that is where the bulk of the "suffering" lies, so this is a major benefit of treatment in terms of quality of life.
And meanwhile, science can continue to search for the neurological underpinnings of misophonia and consider potential treatments and cures for the PRIMARY symptoms of misophonia.

I hope this clarifies my views, they are simply my logical deduction about misophonia.
But the fundamental controversy in this thread seems to be whether HELP for SUFFERING can be achieved, and we seem to be in agreement that it dramatically can.
I hope that my particular views of this condition do not in any way distract from my position that CBT is to be emphatically encouraged and that I believe this could be a primary path to dramatic help for many of those with misophonia who want to learn how to be able to enjoy life more despite the primary symptoms.

I do believe that in 12 hours, this fundamental training could be instilled with a highly motivated and insightful client who is willing to continue with the CBT practices and attitude in daily life.

Sincerely,

Debbie


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LynnMcLaren

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Reply with quote  #36 
Haven't read everything of yet but, (((( Smiles ))))

I agree...

Quote:
I'm not cured and don't know if I ever will reach that point, but I keep moving forward.
 
I agree...
 
Quote:
and yes sounds made by oneself and sounds made by others are processed differently by the brain ... 
 
I agree...
 
Quote:
CBT addresses the SECONDARY, NOT the primary SYMPTOMS.
CBT treats the person, to learn how to tone down all the mental emotional fanfare AROUND the primary symptoms which in turn amplify the primary symptoms.
 
There is alot agreement on alot of things here but that doesn't mean we should not discuss or look at the other possible factors involved in this condition.
We should not just be stuck in the past of definition and not move on toward the future of other possiblitys factors involved with this. 
What others who suffer with this condition finds to be a problem for them and what they have learned from their expirences over the years.
We can discuss it and still come out good or even better in the end.
Maybe we don't have all the complete solutions now for this condition or everybody with this condition..
maybe we don't have all the answers of now and that there are still alot of unknown factors involved  that we can still ponder about here.
What Dr Phil suggested on TV may help alot of people maybe not 100 percent maybe not everybody and maybe for some it may be more complicated then that as it's farther beyond just a phobia an anxiety or ocd condition.
Still no matter how wonderful Dr Phil may be, it is still about entertainment a TV show that gets ratings and even if what Dr J said may not set well with some it is an important factor neverless and should be brought up anyway that what providers may see in there office working environment day to day with these kind of cases and what we see briefly on Dr Phill's TV show no matter how helpful that message may be to others...
there still needs to be some kind of distinction on that in relationship to follow up and long term studies and outcomes and setbacks and still be likeing Dr Phill and enjoying his show in general which may be helpful to many.
But as those that suffer with this condition may bring up something an assessment that they may not agree with on that show as I believe Darlene mentioned something such as that above.
It should all be brought up and looked at in the search of the differences and the answer for to be of more help to people who do have problems with this condition in the future.
As one that does have a problem with the freudian style outdated concepts of the past and it still irks me to this day that at one time autism was accepted as a problem caused by refidgerator moms  who needed a shrink more then anything else and doctors laughed at the concept of washing their hands not to spread diseases and infection at one time
And  when one comes down with hyperacusis your more likely to be sent to the shrink with earplugs and meds then but instructed on sound therapy or sent off for TRT therapy..
Though hopefully thats changeing more and more theses days..
Yes... A lot of people have been irked and to get change people do need to speak out and question all the concepts in the past even if good ones or not and move into the future with improved ones. 
Thats how progress comes for tinnitus or hyperacusis or even autism is people who suffered with it or have family members who suffer with it  and did not just accept the concepts and information or beliefs of the day but challenged it researched it and educated and went their own way forward on things and banded together and shared their stories of what has helped them...
And what has not within the differences of the people who may suffer under the same named label.
Even when it was not in line with the excepted concepts of the day.
And yes I do agree in lots of cases of H and other so named conditions.
That..
 
Quote:
~ Patience and Persistence Pays Off ~
 
But it's not always about that either.
It can be both and I am glad Marilyn came back it can be so hard and I can see the benefits of postivity as well.
We can never just give up no matter what we suffer with and two heads  are better then one and many heads are even better... (((( Smiles ))))

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SandyTH

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Reply with quote  #37 

Billymoe,

 

Thank you for asking about my method of desensitization.  I don’t have a lot of time but do not want to ignore you so am posting some links from old posts of mine.  I hope you will find them helpful.  If you have any questions, I would love you to post them elsewhere as I don’t want this thread to be about me

I have been hyperacusis free for over 5 years and at one time, I was a category 4.  I hope this helps.  I wish you well.

 

http://www.chat-hyperacusis.net/search?searchid=8118341&showas=post&userid=165878

 

http://www.chat-hyperacusis.net/search?searchid=8118353&showas=post&userid=165878

 

http://www.chat-hyperacusis.net/search?searchid=8118390&showas=post&userid=165878

 

Breeze – Thank you for the welcome.

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marilyn

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJ
I have followed these cases and this tv show and would ask..

1) did anyone follow up with "Andrea" a few months later?  I wonder about the persistence of the positive effects of that clinical day

2) how did the 'bad' relationship decide to affect the auditory system?  Reminds me of, hmm, Sigmund Freud's theory

3) does anyone really know HOW to disconnect the signal-reaction unconscious response who can "prove" it using clinical data of any sort, whatsoever?  I would sure like to see that, I know what is stated that 'can' be done, but I would like to see data on how that went over time and with various parameters for measuring.  I could tell you that  I can fly. Yup.  But don't you want to see me do it?

Marsha Johnson


Dr. Johnson, I went back and re-read the transcript Sandy so kindly posted of the program. 

There wasn't any mention of a ''bad relationship'' affecting Andrea's auditory system.

(Actually, the program I watched only showed a few minutes when Dr. Phil very briefly addressed Andrea's question asking if she was the only one who had problems with certain sounds.  That is when he said he could help her through certain desensitizing techniques. 

Evidently there was another program which dealt specifically with the methods used, as indicated in the transcripts posted.)

In your statement #3, you said, "does anyone really know HOW to disconnect the signal-reaction unconscious response who can "prove" it using clinical data of any sort, whatsoever?  I would sure like to see that, I know what is stated that 'can' be done, but I would like to see data on how that went over time and with various parameters for measuring.  I could tell you that  I can fly. Yup.  But don't you want to see me do it?"

This remark might be discouraging for those who have selective sound sensitivity.  I would like to respectfully ask you what methods you use for patients whom you see for selective sound sensitivity?

In other words, there is a lot of  anguish and heartfelt frustration from those on the message board who suffer from selective sound sensitivity, and I would like to ask you what hope of recovery you offer a 4S patient whom you treat?  Just a generalization of the treatment plan you offer your patients, please.

Thank you.
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Reply with quote  #39 

Sandy,

Thank you!  I'm a category 4 hyperacusic, and will avidly read your posts.  You are a dear person, and an inspiration to us all.


Yes, better days are ahead!


(I need to get that back on my signature line.)

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marilyn

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Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnloudb
Hi Marilyn,

Welcome back! Well, I should have kept my big mouth shut. I was having bad day yesterday too ... for which you're partly responsible.   I apologize to everybody for my comments, I overreacted, and I'm sorry. 

John


Hi John,
Thanks for the welcome back.  So if you kicked your cat, it's my fault?  Hmmm...I see a Dr. Phil program in our future discussing this.  Maybe we should blame the source...DR. PHIL!

P.S.  I'm the one who over reacted.  Now, I am doomed to a living a life not worthy of signing my name with an upper case M. 
signed,
lowly lower case marilyn


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Debbie

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Reply with quote  #41 
Dear Marilyn,

I hope your week has gotten a bit better.
Thank you for thinking to post this thread, it has obviously provided much food for thought.
It seems that a positive message of this episode of Dr. Phil's show is to plug cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT,) it can be quite efficient for changing the truly 'learned' responses that have become unwanted habits
and YES it can be much less expensive than from a Dr. Phil show participant therapist.
Wishing you well,

Debbie




 

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Gizmookie

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Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marilyn
So if you kicked your cat, it's my fault?  Hmmm...I see a Dr. Phil program in our future discussing this.  Maybe we should blame the source...DR. PHIL!

P.S.  I'm the one who over reacted.  Now, I am doomed to a living a life not worthy of signing my name with an upper case M. 
signed,
lowly lower case marilyn


Ha ha ha... that made me laugh.   I think you are still worthy of the upper case M though. 

I think there is one thing we all can agree on... no matter what everyone believes and the strong opinions we may  hold, the only thing we want for each other is to be happy and be able to enjoy sound once again free from hyperacusis, or misophonia.

Darlene
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DrJ

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Reply with quote  #43 
How do we treat hyperacusis in the audiology clinic?

We use the tried and true method developed by Dr. Pawel Jastreboff. This approach includes educational supportive counseling and often the use of bilateral desensitization devices or sound generators.  And other sounds as well, pleasant music, nature noises, radio, television, a rich smorgasbord of sounds to recover normal tolerance.

It is a fabulous approach and works quite well in over 90 percent of hyperacusis sufferers.  In addition, we can all be quite sure that it is an effective approach as it has been replicated world wide by multiple clinicians and the results hold true.

This is one of the more pleasurable areas of the T & H clinic, because the vast majority of people with H, can be restored to normal or very near normal tolerance levels for sound.

Six months, sometimes a year, with regular follow ups and encouragement, the person with H will most often follow a relatively smooth upwards improvement slope.

Not all do, but the vast majority.

Now, for the person with 4S or misophonia, I think the treatments are different. 

Misophonics who are true classic ones who dislike all sound, who withdraw from noise, who wear earplugs and avoid interaction with sounds, who are actually quite afraid of sound and also have phonophobia, can be gently helped back into a more normal world using a variety of gentle sound therapies along with the help of a psychologist.  These cases are quite rare, I was able to locate about 11 or so a year ago in a vast internet Monkey Survey, those has been officially 'diagnosed' with misophonia, anyway, in my opinion.  I have seen only a handful in all of my years.

The person with 4S or sound sensitivity to specific and particular softer noises is a different bird.  They do not have hyperacusis in any form most of the time and prefer loud noisy places because this drowns out those trigger sounds.

I believe that for this last group, a serious and strong mix of cognitive/psychogical therapy is required.  Along with that approach, many of these individuals really enjoy using sound generators because the broad band whooshing sound can really cover up and mask a lot of these softer subtle annoying sounds.  I believe that this two pronged approach has significantly improved and changed these individuals' lives for the better.  The sound units are more of an assist that is a kind of relief from the severity of the symptoms.

My conclusions about these three conditions is that the first two really are related to hyperacusis, and the third one is a form of compulsive behavior that has more of a central origin.  I have been personally gratified to see and hear about many of these cases where the combination approach has been the first real help, sometimes for people who have suffered for decades.

This is very good news, and I was really pleased to see Dr. Phil bring even a hint of this to his show. I would like to see how things go in the long run, however, and also to keep pushing for some kind of official research into that third condition.  So many people are waiting for that.

Hope this helps.  Let me know if you want more.

DrJ

PS as you can imagine, one of the obstacles to be over come is the fact that very few psychologists are familiar with the 4S person and can be a bit bewildered as to what to do.  I have spoken with dozens of these professionals on the phone and I would love to see a decent article in a professional journal for this purpose. 

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kimberleydust

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Reply with quote  #44 
Thank you DrJ for sharing your clinic's treatment protocol with us...I have a question...How would you treat someone like myself who has sound sensitivity in combination with light sensitivity and general stimulation sensitivity due to a brainstem tumour (maybe you have treated someone else not necessarily with a brainstem tumour but with a different brainstem condition with these same/similar symptoms).  Or another condition where the auditory pathways (nerves/nuclei) are irritated/affected from a permanent lesion/constriction/shearing??

Thank you
Lou
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Debbie

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Reply with quote  #45 

Dr. J said about TRT for hyperacusis:

"Six months, sometimes a year, with regular follow ups and encouragement, the person with H will most often follow a relatively smooth upwards improvement slope.

Not all do, but the vast majority."

 
Dr. J,

I am wondering what levels of improvement the majority of level 4 hyperacusics achieve through TRT within a year, or even two years.

I am wondering if it puts people back up to where they could do everything 'normal' people can do again, such as go out to concerts and dance clubs wearing normal ear plugs, without any lasting (more than a few hours or at most a few days) reprocussions of any ear symptoms including pressure and ringing.

1.5 years ago, I was in excruciating, lasting pain with loud sounds like a dog bark etc. and even a utensil scraping on a plate, running water, using a cutting board, voices, the telephone, traffic while inside the house...all were extremely amplified and low frequency appliances especially computer, fridge, air conditioner/central heating ramped up the pressure in my ear and, afterwards, my high pitched pulsatile rising from a gentle pulseatile tinkling to screetching in my ear like train brakes.

I have rested from sounds and done various nutritional, body and sound therapies, not broadband, then dove back into normal activities and over the last year have worked up to doing everything except heavily amplified environments of music such as at a concert or club.

But I would like to, and am wondering if TRT is typically a vehicle that takes even a severely affected patient "all the way" to even these most intense 'normal' activities.

When I've tried, the base vibrations have eventually shaken my head and ears right through the plugs, with the impact most fully apparent later, in terms of ear pressure/pulsatile tinnitus wise for over a month afterwards.
Eventually, these setbacks have ended with what felt/seemed like my tensor tympani 'unkinks'/relaxes again with some sharp sensations of pulling and within a short time (minutes) of that, my eardrum feels like it repressurizes somehow and symptoms suddenly reduce again.

I could do these activities but I get concerned that if I keep pushing these limits and go to such loud places the tts or whatever it is might forget how to unkink again after the month or more it has taken to do so in the past after relatively short, 'trial' exposures.

I can now go to plays, road trips, listen to the music on car trips, everything now but not these loud concerts. or a road trip in an old diesel pickup for example... and I'm a reluctant also to do a cycling trip where loud motorcyles and sirens will pass at close range throughout the days, or to join or volunteer at an athletic race event where very amplified rock music is playing to blanket the start and finish lines. 

These are my last holdouts but I would love to have these acitivities back....without having to trade incredible discomforts later such as intense ear fullness and pulsatile tinnitus screetching that last for weeks or longer.....and be concerned that it could lead to permanent setback.

Do even those who started at cat 4 tend to be able to usually go back to even these types of louder activities without repercussions of the fullness and other symptoms aside from the hyperacusis itself?

If not within 1 year, is there a period where most cat 4 people find their ways back to ALL of the activities without having any serious setbacks?

I am curious to know in general if this 'full' level of recovery would be expected amongst most cases, even typically cases that started as very severe.

Thank you very much for any information about what you have seen overall with this group of patients.

Sincerely,

Debbie





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DrJ

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Reply with quote  #46 
Debbie, I hear your question and hopefulness, too.

I am amazed at what you can do and I think that is terrific progress after that period of time.  Many people Cat 4 would sure love to do those things with you.

I hesitate a bit to answer as I feel I have heard a few people here say, SPEAK ONLY POSITIVELY! 

So if you want only positive stuff, don't read any more here, ok?

Cat 4 patients really do struggle to improve.  Some do find their way back up towards former lifestyles, and those situations do happen, and it is wonderful.

Others do not. 

The approach is nearly identical with this category and I generally always include a Tinnitus Coach (counselor or CBT therapist) as there are often many many side issues that are also present.  Many psychological issues or other serious physical ailments, including all the inflammatory ones like 'hot' conditions, i.e., arthritis, plantar fascitis, psoriasis or excema, or perhaps other things like serious thyroid disorders.  Sudden hysterectomies seem to trigger these situations, too, despite hormone replacement therapy.

I know Cat 4 who have stepped right back into life and never look backwards.

I sympathize with you when the reaction includes signficiant pain and pulsing tinnitus.  But I would emphasize that your progress to date has been amazing and terrific and that there is no reason really why eventually you will not resume all sorts of fun pursuits and forget about this hyperacusis/tinnitus problem.

That is the attitude I prefer to carry with my patients, things are progressing, too, in research and imaging, and I do spend quite a bit of time discussing the pain issue versus the tinnitus/hyperacusis issue.

Yes, it is possible.  I am not sure what percentage as you know Cat 4 are the most challenging to treat.  Drs. J do a great job with them, just wonderful, very strong ego presence and infuse confidence like my tea bag brews in my cup....they really do work magic with people, I have seen it as well.

Plain ol' TRT is not going to be very effective with the Cat 4 person, imho.

MJ

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kimberleydust

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Reply with quote  #47 
Hi again Dr J - thanks for your post to Debbie - I feel that I fit Cat 4 as well (on top of my other challenging issues).  I haven't been categorised professionally however...this is just from what I have experienced.  I have proven that exposure to loud, sudden, sharp noises set me back a long way every time i am exposed - no matter how strong I may be feeling mentally or emotionally - it will still happen.  There seems to be a 'window' beyond my 'normal' level of tolerance (which isn't very high).  Over exposure puts me into that window frame and it takes me a long time to get back to my more bearable normal.  It is is that window frame that the anxiety and depression sets in...CBT helps with that.

Lou
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Johnloudb

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Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn
Hi John,

Thanks for the welcome back. So if you kicked your cat, it's my fault?


Hi Marylin,

No, you misunderstand. I take full responsibility for any unfortunate remarks I made - I'm sorry. But, I can't take responsibility for you closing your account - it ruined my day.

Note: I'll always quote you with the uppercase M  


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http://sites.google.com/site/johnsaudiopage/
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SandyTH

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Reply with quote  #49 

Just a reminder.

 

The Dr. Phil show repeats in my area tomorrow night, July 9 at 7 PM on one of our local channels.  Check the listings in your area for time and place.  If I have time, I am going to re-watch it.

 

It is important to remember that although Andrea had at least 12 one-hour sessions, she also had to be responsible for doing the exercises seven days a week for three months.

 

Sandy

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LynnMcLaren

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Reply with quote  #50 
Hi Marilyn, (((( Smiles ))))

Thats Funny!

Maybe we should blame the source... Dr Phill..
Glad your back and still have your sense of humor going besides what you are going through at this time with your hyperacusis..

But on the positive side is that...

Quote:

This is one of the more pleasurable areas of the T & H clinic, because the vast majority of people with H, can be restored to normal or very near normal tolerance levels for sound.



And that is a good thing!

Of course as with any condition that we struggle with in life..
Some do not, and some only have some improvement or improve only so much and also may not improve 100 percent..
I'm sure other co-factors could possible exist as written also about above that could determine that factor plus maybe even reasons unknown as well.
But we should always hope and strive for the best for what the vast majority of people can achive because most likely that will be what will happen for you too.

People should never expect only the worst outcome but strive for the best and then see where we are at then, at that time in life.
And then make an honest acessment of the situation at that time..  
Sometimes we take the good with the bad, ya. Thats life at times when it throws these many dillema's we face at us at times. 

As Dr Phil said:
He said she had an anxiety response to those sounds.
If it's an anxiety response she has then she needs to reduce her anxiety response and then that could be the solution for her.
But if it's something else besides that. Then there is a co-factor involved thats more then just an anxiety response. So that would complicate things in that kind of case. But reducing anxiety and stress in ones life will help with any condition that we may suffer from there is no question about that.
But it's in seperating the anxiety from the condition as if written..
The person with 4S or sound sensitivity to specific and particular softer noises is a different bird..
There may be differences there and as Debbie mentioned somewhere above. Like ...
We don't want to be demeaning to a person who doesn't improve or get cured even though working on an anxiety factor therapy and...
with other then it helping them in being a copeing method for them in any improvement at all. 
That it may not be just an anxiety issue alone that there may be other possible factors involved and we just don't want to blame it in all cases only on that scenarion alone.
Plus an illness a disfunction can cause one anxiety and depression as well. 
What came first, the chicken or the egg..
Plus there are alot of anxious people in this world which may never come down with this disorder.
when a person may feel blamed for their condition when it is not just anxiety ocd etc..
It could make a person feel really misunderstood and alone expecially when this kind of therapy dosen't cure them yet everyone tells them it should.
Hopefully it will work well for that person and we should try to do all we can to help ourselves and never give up.
As most people do get improved as with hyperacusis disorder.
But the other thing looks to be more of a challenge for sure..
Like hyperacusis or tinnitus is not a challenging disorder within itself too..... ((( Smiles )))          

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